tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1972826087215937710.post624934792668902166..comments2023-11-02T04:57:46.787-07:00Comments on The Ultimate SHubbard: Rules Knowledge AdvantageStephen Hubbardhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15189530180367803941noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1972826087215937710.post-86090218338759736532009-12-16T11:44:03.047-08:002009-12-16T11:44:03.047-08:00Evan: I have been a soccer referee for 10 years so...Evan: I have been a soccer referee for 10 years so I have some of the same perspectives as you.<br /><br />In soccer (it sounds like you are a Brit, so... in Football) there are certainly many no-calls to preserve an attacking team's advantage: better to have a breakaway than a free kick even if they have to play through a foul.<br /><br />Also, what constitutes a foul changes WIDLY from one referee to another. We all us the same rulebook, but while a American ref sees a foul, a British ref sees good hard physical play. This differential application of "the laws of the game" (thats what we call them) IS OK BECAUSE THE REF AWARDS CALLS EVENLY. If the definition of a foul changes game to game, at least everyone is subject to the same standard because the ref remains the same.<br /><br />In Ultimate, there are 14 different referees on the field which leads to calls that one referee would never think of calling while others think is appropriate. I think following the travel rules to the letter of the law is appropriate, some of my fellow referees don't. Ugh.Stephen Hubbardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15189530180367803941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1972826087215937710.post-56246193615686779812009-12-15T19:28:01.813-08:002009-12-15T19:28:01.813-08:00I need to preface my comments by explaining that I...I need to preface my comments by explaining that I am an amateur Ultimate player. I've played for some travelling teams, but never played in such a serious tournament that most of the rules cited could be reasonably (read: without everyone, my own team included, thinking I was a huge dick) called.<br /><br />That being said, I am going to react to this article as a provincial (...aspiring national) On-ice Ringette Official. Ringette is both the fastest and most complex game played on ice. The rules are at least twice as complex as ice hockey, and 99% of them are called (by officials like myself) with an advantage/ disadvantage philosophy. Example: Just this past weekend I held off calling more that a handful of perfectly textbook 'trips' because the attacking player knew enough not to pursue the ring after they tripped the ring-carrier while trying to get it (called a 'check' in Ringette), since they didn't get the ring, there was not advantage, so no call - even though the defender hit the ice.<br /><br />This give me, I think, a pretty interesting position when I step onto the Ultimate pitch and interpret rules for myself. Naturally an absolute application of an advantage / disadvantage philosophy is not practical when players are making calls: of course you feel disadvantaged when picked! Meanwhile, Ultimate is like Ringette in having very complex rules to regulate player movement and contact that need the attention of a more developed approach then simple written rule application. In other words, just like in Ringette, knowing the rules well can allow you to gain an advantage while "not" gaining an advantage.<br /><br />To answer the question posed at the top of the article, players need to be conversant in the rules of a game they expect to play. I call tons of penalties which I then have to explain to kids who've never seen that call before. Exploiting the rules is in no way gaining an advantage, since the rules are available for everyone to learn equally. If a player is ignorant of their right in a situation or how to effectively manipulate a situation to their favour, thats their own problem. You don't say that a team who runs sprints three times a week has an unfair advantage because they're fitter and trained harder, so why would you think so because those players took the time to learn the rules better?<br /><br />Kudos to you for getting into your game enough that you *learn* all the ways *to use the rules* to your *advantage*.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1972826087215937710.post-47233120884394431512009-12-07T10:05:24.977-08:002009-12-07T10:05:24.977-08:00Your Personal Favorite. It sounds to me like you’...Your Personal Favorite. It sounds to me like you’re calling a violation under II.R.2 The procedure is to establish the pivot, touch the disc to the ground, and put the disc into play. To put the disc into play at a particular spot on the field means to establish a pivot at that spot (II.R.1). Throwing/faking obligates a player to put the disc into play at the current spot in the end zone setting (X.A.1). In the case you described, you’re calling a violation under II.R.2, but the violation occurred when the thrower failed to touch the disc to the ground. However you could possibly imagine “put the disc into play” to be defined (whether establishing a pivot or throwing/faking or continuing play some other way), it has already happened. You needed to call that failure to touch it to the ground immediately or you can’t call it (XVI.A). Your “illegal throw” call relies on the failure to ground touch call, so if you waive the failure to ground touch call, you waive the illegal throw call (which is based on a little guiding language of the same rule!). Your personal favorite move is a dick move. Interpreting VERY questionable rules ambiguity very questionably like a dick in order to stop play and make a VERY questionable argument around your violation of XVI.A like a dick is a dick move.<br /><br />My Personal Favorite. Crushing a weaker opponent in an ice cream eating contest and then crushing him again by even more when he talks trash about “next time.” Not a dick move. Raising his crushed spirits by setting yourself on fire – pure sportsmanship.<br /><br />-ColinColinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1972826087215937710.post-62493585083510094842009-12-07T10:04:30.406-08:002009-12-07T10:04:30.406-08:00Stephen,
Here are my unofficial thoughts on the m...Stephen,<br /><br />Here are my unofficial thoughts on the matter – speaking for myself only. In short, you’re not a dick, but you’re contemplating dick behavior.<br /><br />Causing extra stoppages of play by making dick calls based on dick rules interpretation (and then taking extra time to explain those interpretations) makes the game less enjoyable for everyone involved. So play by the rules, don’t be a dick, and you’ll be all set. Ignoring the purpose of rules and making calls strictly based on the letter of the rules runs the risk of falling into the “being a dick” category. If you really know the rules, you’re not going to be doing that crap. With great power comes great responsibility.<br /><br />Things you have in mind:<br /><br />Not offering a check on a live disc. Of course you don’t have to. But the point of the rules is for players to know when and where the disc is coming into play. I do not offer a check, but I do make sure my opponent and I are in agreement on where the disc is being put into play. Then I clearly establish my foot at the spot, touch the disc to the ground and start playing. I do not deliberately do this very quickly to surprise the thrower. I also don’t make focus downfield and make hand signals to try to make the marker think something was called downfield and then throw it once he turns around.<br /><br />Running. When you are allowed to run, you may run as fast or slowly as you want.<br /><br />Drawing a marking foul. You could do this all day long. I could fake slightly above your hand and call a foul whenever there was contact until you got so sick of it that you backed up completely out of my reach. The point of the rules is not to provide an offensive weapon. It is to establish the rights of each player and allow for the game to be played in a reasonable way. If the marker is not playing fairly, will I take advantage of his unfair play to reset the count? Yes. Will I simply draw a foul every time the count gets high? No.<br /><br />Playing Smart with Observers. Telling your team the smart way to play with observers is fine. Bonus points for me I know why not to call strips. You have no obligation to tell the other team anything, but you should reiterate to their teammates that they can only go to the observer if they believe a contest is justified – mere strategic reasons are not enough.<br /><br />Delaying putting a live disc into play. When XIX.B tells you to avoid any delay when continuing play in the previous sentence, how could you possibly interpret “reasonably necessary” as allowing you to wait around for cutters to get open? That’s an absurd, incorrect, rules-weenie-cheater approach to rules interpretation.<br />Using Rules Phrases. Fine. I think quoting rules is pretentious, but simply using the terms while communicating like a normal person makes a lot of sense. “Your arms were not completely stationary, so it’s a foul on you, marker.” Using rules phrases doesn’t make you a dick. Being a dick makes you a dick, though.<br /><br />Stall Procedure. I don’t think you have had the privilege of watching me get stalled. It’s a rare treat. Allowing play to continue when both teams have implicitly agreed to continue playing and are clearly ok with it sounds alright. Keep the game moving, no big problem, big deal. Selectively allowing play to continue isn’t ok. Either you’re ok with play continuing when both teams implicitly agree, or you’re not. Your advantage should not factor into that analysis.<br /><br />Time Outs. I wouldn’t call this. The point of the time-out procedures is to make sure that everyone is aware that a time-out is called, not to lay a trap for ignorant throwers. If I understand that a time-out has been called, then that’s good enough. Similarly, if someone yells “time-out” and doesn’t make the T, but does not have any time-outs remaining, I’d argue for the turnover.<br /><br />I ran out of characters. But I figured you’d appreciate thorough comments – you’re asking for thoughts, not a poll. I’ll address personal favorites in the next comments.<br /><br />-ColinColinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1972826087215937710.post-87835205247812554902009-12-06T23:28:53.934-08:002009-12-06T23:28:53.934-08:00Hey, I love this post :) Here in Europe we hardly ...Hey, I love this post :) Here in Europe we hardly ever play with observers and I didn't notice any at WUGC 2008 either (the only time I've played in North America) so I've never played with observers. However, here's my answers to your situations:<br /><br />1) No<br />2) No<br />3) No, if 'drawing' results in an actual foul, not you calling something which really isn't a foul<br />4) Not unfair<br />5) I believe you are not allowed to stall bringing the disc live (correct me when wrong though) so I would say this situation should be avoided.<br />6) This is actually good, since stating the exact rules leaves less room for discussion. I've heard 'It IS in the rules' versus 'No it is NOT in the rules' on the field SO many times ...<br />7) Not unfair, it is the other teams' responsibility to know the rules. Not yours to tell them what the rules are (at comptetitive level ultimate that is).<br />8) Rules are rules, but I would always let this one slide. I think this should actually be adjusted in the rules.<br />9) Unsportsmanlike, because you are actively deceiving your opponent. That is where I would draw the line.<br /><br />And in all of these cases, doing the 'right' thing would of course be the spirited thing to do!Jessehttp://www.howtothrowlikeapro.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1972826087215937710.post-22632844395089083802009-12-02T10:22:41.537-08:002009-12-02T10:22:41.537-08:001- if they are "fine" with not knowing t...1- if they are "fine" with not knowing the rules, they should also be "fine" with any disadvantage that puts them at.<br />3- i think the language of the rulebook is one of the main reasons people don't know the rules. i think this excuse is less acceptable the more competitive a team is. <br />4- even getting to the rules online is difficult(no link on the homepage!!!)<br />------<br />on your scenarios- <br />- tell the player(&captain of the player) that was under the assumption that they got to check the disc in they were wrong-on the sidelines/after the game.<br />- i've had teammates tell me this was a violation/travel for 4 years...where in the rules do they get this from? <br /><br />- it doesn't matter if its drawing a foul or not...it's a foul. <br /><br />- i've never played in an observed game, but if "A strip is a subset of fouls and is treated the same way." Why call one & not the other?<br /><br />- if you're standing over the disc, or have it in your hands, you can be stalled after your two second warning.(i would love to see this done more)<br /><br />-arguing with the words in the rulebook make it easier for the other person to look up the rules later on...my entire freshmen year i looked for "straddle" in the rulebook. :(Torrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18407119596505876942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1972826087215937710.post-86091513990548103162009-12-02T09:45:34.257-08:002009-12-02T09:45:34.257-08:00all i know of is this brief document: http://www.w...all i know of is this brief document: http://www.wfdf.org/rules/WFDF_2009_v_UPA_11_Rules.pdf<br /><br />which has the caveat: "It is<br />necessarily brief and incomplete. For a full treatment of the rules, refer to the relevant<br />section of the WFDF Rules of Ultimate 2009."<br /><br />so...if you're playing outside north america (Prague?) you better be careful about using your 'rules knowledge advantage' :-)PlasticBingehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08068881159874453799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1972826087215937710.post-9487705884361410422009-12-02T09:35:04.203-08:002009-12-02T09:35:04.203-08:00Torre:
I think a lot of players don't know the...Torre:<br />I think a lot of players don't know the rules well because of 4 things:<br /><br />1. It doesn't seem that necessary - they get through 99.5% of their games "just fine" without that knowledge<br />2. Most players that are playing ultimate in the world have played for a shorter period of time than my little brother playing U11 youth soccer. In other sports people don't actually read a rule book until they have been invested in the sport for more than 7 years.<br />3. It actually is very complicated. It is long, some of the wording is non intuitive, and there are cross references all over the place and everything is in roman numerals which you gotta admit take 3 seconds each time to figure out what number it is.<br />4. Few people actually have a rule book. I don't know why this is. I think the UPA should give them away in droves at every tournament but they don't. I bought 140 for $140 last year to give out at the tournaments I run in San Diego.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Plastic:<br />Ive never really looked over the WFDF rules and only heard causally that they are different. Any place online have a side by side comparison?Stephen Hubbardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15189530180367803941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1972826087215937710.post-79976126688020572952009-12-02T04:14:34.677-08:002009-12-02T04:14:34.677-08:00interesting stuff.
Unfortunately, I don't kn...interesting stuff. <br /><br />Unfortunately, I don't know the UPA rules well enough (I play WFDF rules) to appreciate every scenario fully. I do think the difference in the rule sets with regard to these situations is interesting. Well - some of the situations don't really exist under WFDF rules- although there might be others.<br /><br />For instance in WFDF rules, a live disc doesn't get checked in - once a pivot foot is set - its game on - and that might eliminate some of those scenarios. <br /><br />Aside from that - it seems for most of them it could be argued that your're going against the etiquette : "It is the responsibility of all players to avoid any delay"...arguably includes telling a guy the disc isn't in yet if he hasn't put it in to play and doesn't know this. <br /><br />The timeout one seems the worst thing to call there - but absolutely within the rules. I guess its just because it could make such a clear difference to the result of a close game that it seems so bad.PlasticBingehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08068881159874453799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1972826087215937710.post-34295385249240302642009-12-01T22:38:01.020-08:002009-12-01T22:38:01.020-08:00I loved this post. I actually laughed out loud whe...I loved this post. I actually laughed out loud when i read some of the scenarios. <br /><br />Why do so many players not know the rules? I'm all for following the rules(even if that means taking advantage of the other teams ignorance of the rules). The rules are readily accessible to (almost) everyone. <br /><br />RE: calling a violation on your on team(in the stall count discussion), a player can't call a violation or foul on themselves or their team. They can only let the other team know of the infraction and leave for them to call. <br /><br />interested in seeing others responses to this as well. . .Torrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18407119596505876942noreply@blogger.com